Thursday, 2 September 2010

What is the problem?

Glen this one is for you...

from here

It is not sin that's the problem, or the wrath of God that's the problem

It is God's love that's the 'problem'

The reason God hates sin is because it destroys those whom He loves, His Son, His children and their brothers and sisters...

The problem the world faces is that it's God and Creator and Father loves it too much to leave it alone...


Glen said...

touche! ;-)

Though Revelation 6 would read a bit different: "Hide us from Him who sits on the throne and from the love of the Lamb!!"

Dave K said...

Do you think you loose anything by taking the macro view, as opposed to the micro view?

In saying that it is NOT the wrath of God that is the problem, are you doing the equivalent of the hyper-calvinists and trying to systematise to extinction the Gospel? Isn't it BOTH the wrath and the love of God that is the problem... but as soon as you utterly subsume one under the other haven't you denied something you shouldn't deny?

Death (the expression of God's wrath) is BOTH God's enemy, and his judgement. As soon as we say it is 'not' God's enemy, are we in hot water?

Thinking aloud.

Dave K said...

That should say 'lose'

yemsee said...

Hi Dave

well i'm not saying that there is no judgment or wrath or sin

i'm saying that the reason for all this is the love of God for His Son and His people

i would argue that when i have the macro view i can understand the different aspects better

He's angry only because He loves His Son

Dave K said...


Of course I don't think you're saying there is no judgement/wrath.

BUT, I think you are trying to make God's wrath 100% understandable.

To quote Oswald Bayer:

"The Bible speaks about an understandable wrath of God. [e.g. in the] theological view of the Deuteronomistic History...But what about the wrath of God that cannot be understood? One cannot mistake the fact that this is discussed in biblical texts as well - most especially in the psalms of lament."

God actually destroys those he loves, and even the one he loves most of all (his Son). At that point it is both right to mourn, but also to be joyful. It to call on God to act according to his love, AND to trust that he is already doing so! Sometimes it's good to focus on what is straight in front of you and engage with that, as well as lifting up your eyes to see the big (macro) picture.

Do you get what I mean?

yemsee said...


but can't it be understood by His love for Christ?

He loves Him so much that He wants Him to have a bride, and the only way He teaches Him that He can have a bride is to "leave His Father" and cleave to His wife?

Dave K said...

Hi Yemsee,

Yes of course it can be understood that way... gloriously.

I guess though that we only fully understand that when we see him face to face. To the degree we do not yet see Christ, to that degree it is still by faith and not sight that we believe it is understandable - even if we don't understand it.